20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).

It seems my 1 man riot in Jita is finally catching fire.

Pitchfork seemed like a good way to put it.

Thanks to .EOL for helping.

Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.

Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long.

So it's been a little over 7 days since CCP has posted in this thread, and I think a little over 4 since an ISD confirmed CCP does not and has never lived in wormhole space. Makes me take a real long look at Star Citizen and E:D.

CCP has two main problems, both of their own making.

the first is the horrendous lack of communication over the last month+ starting with people stumbling over the changes on sisi by accident through to multiple threads locked or even deleted, even official ones, to being shunted round from one thread to anothet. not to mention passive aggressive posts from devs.

then we get to the real issue and I think why there is so much discussion for the real reason for the change. the devblog did actually say why these changes were being made. but when the wh community said that these changes will not in any way accomplish those goals we were ignored for a month. we were/are right because we have/are you know, actually living there so we are confused.

if you have a goal and near enough 90% of the 2k+ posts tells you you will not accomplish these goals, why implement the change anyways? Hubris? Pride? Incompetence? Dont give a ****? lying about the stated goals?

thats why we think that you dont want people living in whs, or want to nerf wh income, or are just following nullsec wishes(they seem happy enough about this) or you just plain hate wormholers.

but whatever. pretty soon it wont have anthing to do with me.

Mass-Based Spawn Distance needs to go for multiple reasons, not just rolling holes.

Most people fly covert ops in WH space, it used to be that you ran a risk going through a hole and spawning too close to it to cloak up. Now there is NO risk as you're always placed far enough away where you can cloak up and easily maneuver through anyone camping the other side. We've missed multiple kills so far due to this, and we've been able to safely live due to this. No fights were had, no one died.

Rolling holes is harder. Not that big of a deal for the large corps, but I think this REALLY effects the small corps (like us). Yeah you can try and close a hole quickly once you open your fresh static. But you alienate the small corps which I would say makes up the majority of WH space by not allowing them to manage their own space like they previously have been able to do. We had a C4 spawn into our hole and the corp tried to close the hole. They brought in two BS, we had our hic ready. We caught both of them in the bubble but they were SO FAR APART from each other we could only manage to get point on one before the other one burned 3KM out of the hic bubble and got away. I mean, when they went through the hole they were like 40KM away from each other. If this was pre hyperion they would of been forced to fight and bring in reinforcements to save the ships (which they had). But instead, they let one die so they could get the other one out.

And the worst thing this has done is change the WH culture that everyone is used to and loves. WH space is known for it's close combat brawling on holes, that's what people love, that's what people skilled up for. In trying to fix "rage rolling" which really isn't that big of a deal (imo) CCP changed the culture in a big way that the community DOES NOT LIKE. You're lucky if you can get a fight on a hole. It's EASY to get away. And you've screwed the little guys in the process by not allowing them to manage their own space. CCP has turned WH space into Null with no local, literally, that's just about what it is now.

I think enough has been said that CCP knows we do not Like One of the changes and its hurting our space. Now it is just a matter of seeing if they care enough to back up a few changes or make more constructive changes to Pull Players back into w space.

Here are a few of my ideas.


1. Sleepers faction Drops= this will Give us officer / faction drops same as other space and will drive ppl into whs to hunt for them.

2. A higher class wh like a c7 that has massive mass whs that you can move a proper cap fleet and support fleet to run sleeper sites with capital sleepers and get back out . We will be able to have large fleet fights as well in there. Make The class 7 with no moons so it can not be "lived" in and multiple connections

3. Make lower class wh sleeper drops better and more worth while to run. this is class 1-3 also let make a few more of the triggers random to take out the boring predictable assembly line style of running sights. Maybe give them some escalations as well if you warp in bs's or caps for all class sites


That is all i have for now but a few constructive ideas for you to look over

The point is not that the patch made rolling holes so impossibly unsafe that nobody does it anymore, its that it takes longer and is unsafe for smaller corporations to do in a reasonable amount of time in the face of an opposing force. The resulting increased connectivity of un-collapsable wormholes (combined with the stupid frigate WH's) as a result has simply made many corps leave WH space or go AFK/play other games while waiting for holes to collapse rather than potentially stay online to fight or roll said wormholes.

I'd also like to ask: how long do your chains go before you find "content?" I'm willing to bet its a hell of a lot further than before the patch.